246 - Decolonize Spirituality and Visibility with Dr. Rocio Rosales Meza

Mar 13

246 - Decolonize Spirituality and Visibility with Dr. Rocio Rosales Meza

Listeners, we're back this week with Dr. Rocio Rosales Meza

Dra. Rocío Rosales Meza, is a Xicana/Mexicana Indigenous women in diaspora. She is a Seer, initiated medicine woman in the Q’ero Inca lineage, & is a Counseling Psychology Ph.D. She is also an unschooling mama to a 5 year old child who holds supernatural gifts.

Dra. Rocio walks and works in between the earthly and spiritual realms as a claircognizant, clairvoyant, clairsentient, and clairaudient. She comes from a long line of healers on both her maternal and paternal lineages and was born with psychic, channeling, and mediumship gifts. Dra. Rocio is able to see beyond this ordinary reality to bring forth the highest timelines and visions into our earthly reality. She is grateful to her teachers, Pampamesayoq Don Alejandro Apaza & Mesa Carrier and Medicine Woman Marilu Shinn for helping her remember.

Dra. Rocio’s work is at the intersections of decolonizing, spirituality, and wellness. While she has 21 years of experience conducting cultural, social, and psychological research, 18 years of experience as a healer, and 16 years of experience teaching courses in anti-oppressive work and helping skills, she believes that it is her spiritual gifts and ability to cultivate compassion and alchemize as her greatest gifts. She is able to hold potent healing space for others as this is a skill in her blood lineage, with her abuelita and her mother as her greatest teachers.

Her work is deeply rooted in Indigenous wisdom, medicine, and worldview and her work has had a global impact to evolve the collective consciousness in understanding the need to decolonize our minds, to reclaim our spiritual sovereignty, and to restore balance to our world. She views decolonization not as a destination, but as a pathway to the New Earth and to remembering our sacred ways. While she does decolonial work, that is only part of her work, she serves as a spiritual guide for all people to recover their whole selves, their spiritual gifts, and to remember that we are all peoples of the Earth.

Dra. Rocio’s work weaves decolonial teachings, Indigenous Earth medicine, somatic work, energy work, and shadow work. She offers group guidance, self-paced teachings, weekend intensives and facilitates healing to all peoples that believe a New Earth is possible and feel called to take up their sacred responsibility to co-create it.

During our conversation, we talked about:

How her business has changed since we last spoke
Decolonizing spirituality
Visibility
and more...

Hello everyone. This is Pam de Café con Pam, the bilingual podcast that features Latine, Latinx and people of the global majority who break barriers, change lives, and make this world a better place. Welcome to episode 246 of Café con Pam. Today we have a conversation with Dra. Rocio Rosales Meza.
Dra. Rocio is a Xicana/Mexicana Indigenous women in diaspora.
She is a Seer, initiated medicine woman in the Q’ero Inca lineage, & is a Counseling Psychology Ph.D. She is also an unschooling mama to a 5 year old child who holds supernatural gifts.
Dra. Rocio walks and works in between the earthly and spiritual realms as a claircognizant, clairvoyant, clairsentient, and clairaudient. She comes from a long line of healers on both her maternal and paternal lineages and was born with psychic, channeling, and mediumship gifts. Dra. Rocio is able to see beyond this ordinary reality to bring forth the highest timelines and visions into our earthly reality. She is grateful to her teachers, Pampamesayoq Don Alejandro Apaza & Mesa Carrier and Medicine Woman Marilu Shinn for helping her remember.
Dra. Rocio’s work is at the intersections of decolonizing, spirituality, and wellness. While she has 21 years of experience conducting cultural, social, and psychological research, 18 years of experience as a healer, and 16 years of experience teaching courses in anti-oppressive work and helping skills, she believes that it is her spiritual gifts and ability to cultivate compassion and alchemize as her greatest gifts. She is able to hold potent healing space for others as this is a skill in her blood lineage, with her abuelita and her mother as her greatest teachers.
Her work is deeply rooted in Indigenous wisdom, medicine, and worldview and her work has had a global impact to evolve the collective consciousness in understanding the need to decolonize our minds, to reclaim our spiritual sovereignty, and to restore balance to our world. She views decolonization not as a destination, but as a pathway to the New Earth and to remembering our sacred ways. While she does decolonial work, that is only part of her work, she serves as a spiritual guide for all people to recover their whole selves, their spiritual gifts, and to remember that we are all peoples of the Earth.
Dra. Rocio’s work weaves decolonial teachings, Indigenous Earth medicine, somatic work, energy work, and shadow work. She offers group guidance, self-paced teachings, weekend intensives and facilitates healing to all peoples that believe a New Earth is possible and feel called to take up their sacred responsibility to co-create it.
Listeners, this episode is one that has been in the works for a long time. As you know, Dra. Rocio has been already at Café con Pam, she was on episode 142, if you haven't checked that one out, and we talked that time about spirituality, about decolonizing our work. And this time around she came to share about what happened post pandemic times, how has her work shifted. And I actually, because I love Dra. Rocio and we often have conversations in the dms, and it's a lot of like voice memos that we send each other and we haven't done it in a minute. And so, I think I just kinda like went in from a place of like, oh my gosh, I haven't seen you in a long time, and I shared a ton. So you'll hear a lot of my stories weaved into the conversation and how she is able to connect to the energy of what I'm saying, and even I would say channel some messages for all of us, which is so powerful. So I feel like this is one of those conversations that truly feel like a cafecitothat me and someone I care about are having. So I hope you enjoy it. And before we continue, let's hear from the sponsors of the show.
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So yeah, listeners, I hope you have your Magic Mind on hand so you can stay focused on this conversation. Because another thing is that when I have conversations with someone who is so powerful, I feel like my energy also kind of explodes in a way that normally it can keep contained. And my excitement perhaps is something that also takes into effect, I guess. And we through, you'll hear me say like we have a lot of rabbits in here because in tapping we call it rabbits when the client is literally bringing new topic after topic after topic. And so I'm used to calling them rabbits when there's a lot of topics that come out of the conversation. And however, I do think that because we had a lot of rabbits come out, you'll be able to comment on those and tell us what else do you want us to talk about next? Because she agreed to come back and last time we had a whole pandemic in between our conversations that we went through. Right now we're going through a whole crisis in the world that I'm hoping you're all holding on. Holding up. What's the saying? I'm not sure, but I hope you're being strong and I hope this conversation nourishes you and replenishes you in a way that you may need it and sin más I'll let you listen to my conversation with Dra. Rocio Rosales Meza.
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Pam: Dra. Rocio, welcome back to Cafe con Pam.
Dra. Rocio: Thank you. It's an honor to be here with you again.
Pam: It's been a while.
Dra. Rocio: Yes.
Pam: And people keep requesting you because your episode is one of the most listened. It's in the top 10 episodes of Café con pam. And so I think we teased it last time. The, we were like, yeah, you have to come back. And then we kinda like, yes, yes, yes.
Dra. Rocio: A pandemic happened and now we're here.
Pam: A whole pandemic for two years. Oh my gosh. That's what happened.
Dra. Rocio: Yes.
Pam: How are you?
Dra. Rocio: I am doing good. You know, it, it was hard as a, as a mother, I'm not gonna lie. You know, I think for the parents it was really difficult for the little ones as well. But also there was a lot of necessary shedding through the pandemic. And a lot of unveiling, like of our gifts and where we needed to shift. So while it was hard, it, I think it was needed.
Pam: Yeah. I think for parents it was perhaps I would venture to say one of the most difficult identities is not the word, but what, like groups of people. Parents, I think kind of like went through it the most because they had to make sure that their little humans were alive. Mental health for everyone in the family, transitioning school safety, fear. It was a lot.
Dra. Rocio: It was a lot. Yeah. And as you're saying that what's really coming through is like a generational shift happened during that time. You know, for the parents, but I think for everyone of like a cycle, you know, was ending and it was hard AF you know. But we needed that. And so there's so many things that we do differently now because of that.
Pam: So many things, and I've actually had this conversation with friends who are also business owners, and we've talked about how pre pandemic you had, you know, the networking events, you had the like happy hour and then the pandemic happened and it's like, well, we can't do that. And sometimes there were some occasions where we went to Zoom and doing that online, but it wasn't, you know, the same. And now that things are reopening and you're able to meet people again, we're like, I don't wanna do that anymore. I just, I think part of the shift, yes, we are feeling the nourishment from deeper conversations from actual communal spaces rather than the masking of the alcohol.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. And even as you're speaking, like it really invited us into presence. You know, I think that before the pandemic for all of us, me included, we didn't realize how much we were really holding, how much we were really doing, you know? And so it's really invited us into full presence. Like what do I have capacity for now that I've shifted into like my cave and like doing things slower, what do I really wanna keep in my life and what do I have capacity for?
Pam: And giving yourself permission to sit still. Because for a minute, for like, you know, 24 months or whatever it was, we were forced to sit still and we had to learn what it was like to not have places to be, people to see, places to go to because there was literally nothing but stillness and it affected a lot of people in mental health.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. And I'm also thinking of all the layers of that, right? Like there was a lot of us that that were able to be still, and then there was a lot of the people in our communities who are lower, you know, social class who did not have the privilege to be sitting.
Pam: Right.
Dra. Rocio: But it was all these extras that we couldn't do anymore, like the socializing, right? And then that's the things that impacted us in terms of our mental health, in terms of our spirit. Even like, we also realized, you know, being with myself is important and also I do really need other humans, but to, for that to be in an intentional way.
Pam: That made me think of toxic individuality that's been so pushed upon us by all these white supremacist principles and business specifically. And how one of the pieces that I noticed was --I didn't have to let go because I already didn't purposefully embody that toxic individuality-- but it also opened the door to have those deep conversations to say, I need your help. In these spaces. Before we touch on that, I do wanna do acknowledge that it is a privilege to be able to sit still. 100%. Like you said. My mom was working all throughout the pandemic and in the beginning it was one of those things that she, because we didn't know what we didn't know. Right. And so she would come home and literally stripped down at the door, all the spray, you know, like, because who knows what's going on.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. There was so much we didn't know.
Pam: So much of it we didn't know. And it was painful for me as her daughter because I'm like, she's older, she is still going to work, and I'm over here sitting in my computer, like, it's fine. And so that also, it was kind of like, in a way it, it that affected my mental health because I couldn't do much about it. In such privileged way.
Dra. Rocio: I know I'm really like attuning to the layers here. And this is something that also came through before our conversation, like, and I wanna say that we spoke about this last time too, the survivor's guilt that we feel often.
Pam: Oh my gosh.
Dra. Rocio: In doing decolonial work, you know, and doing any anti-oppressive work and how often like we receive the message because we carry some privilege or because maybe we have it better than the generation before us, that we have to like stay in that pain, that we have to stay in that guilt, that we have to punish ourselves even. You know, even in this moment, I feel like this is a big message that wants to come through for anyone listening, that that is not the intention of decolonial work. That's not the purpose of doing anti-oppressive work. It's not for you to punish yourself, it's for you to be more mindful, awaken, so that you, in the way that you live your life, that you can, you know, redistribute wealth or create opportunities for justice, but not so that you punish yourself.
Pam: So good. It's so good. Let's just sit in that for a moment. [laughs] It's something that I see all the time.
Dra. Rocio: Yes.
Pam: Is that guilt.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. The guilt, the punishing, the shame, you know, and if we stay in that, that's feeding into this oppressive paradigm, especially for black indigenous people of color, especially for those that are marginalized, poor, disabled, women and femes gender fluid folks, right? Like for us to punish ourselves, stay in the pain, that's actually fitting into what we don't want.
Pam: Right. Totally. I do a 30 day tapping challenge andduring that challenge, like I have been challenged about the challenge. Because there has been resistance from folks. I actually was on a call one time and this woman was like, I can't, how dare you tell me to make money when my people are dying and when communities of color are, you know, like filled with food deserts. And I'm like, let's think about what you just said for a moment because I will dare you to make money because I know that when you do, you will go back to the community and give it back. I will dare. Because the money is not what's bad, it's what people have done with it that has harmed others. And I trust that when you do make money, you're not gonna make harm with it. I say that to say there's still a lot of that still.
Dra. Rocio: What we're really speaking about is the way that we unconsciously oppress ourselves.
Pam: Yes.
Dra. Rocio: The way that we unconsciously colonize ourselves, you know? And it's such a like paradox, irony, that when we're doing decolonial work, that we end up doing that to ourselves, you know?
Pam: Oh my gosh, yes.
Dra. Rocio: And this is really what I invite people into in this next phase of my work, is for people to really be conscious of the energy that they embody, conscious of the ways that they collude with this paradigm, even for themselves. And to really begin to attune, tap into that you are the sacred vessel for the new earth. And so if we are the sacred vessel for the new earth, we're not gonna get there by punishing ourselves, by silencing ourselves, by oppressing ourselves, that we really need to allow ourselves to flourish and to be well.
Pam: Because that's our right. Just like any other human being. How do you respond when people say, well, let me post the question.
Dra. Rocio: Maybe I'm hearing a question already in what you just said, so let me answer. A question that maybe I'm telepathically receiving is like this money, you know, this money example that you just gave. You know, there are so many layers there. The first thing I wanna say is that it's important for us to be in right relationship when we do business. I actually just had a live yesterday with Toy Marie Smith[?]. For those that are interested in doing,
Pam: Oh, Toy[?] is great.
Dra. Rocio: Things differently. I learn a lot from her. And one of the things that we spoke about and and she shares is that when you do business in a way that is anti-capitalist, it doesn't mean that you're anti-money. It means that you're anti exploitation. And honestly, that has taken me a really long time to learn that, you know. Because I'm really good about, and I think anyone that is doing decolonial work, we are really good about not exploiting others. Like we get that, you know, I'm gonna be in right relationship with others. I'm gonna do this work in integrity. I'm gonna allow, you know, create offerings that allow us sliding scale. I'm gonna give as much as I can. Like we do that well, especially women and femmes of colorthat have these values. But, and this is where my unlearning came in, we have a harder time in being in right relationship with ourselves. Like allowing myself to receive money, allowing myself to, you know, make enough money so that I'm well, so that I'm not always tired all the time so that I'm not depleted. And that goes back to the sacred vessel. You know, if I'm the sacred vessel, I need to take care of me. I can't be hustling and grinding, you know. Along with that I can't be colluding with systems that are making money in exploitive ways. Like, that's key, that's important. But also let us trust ourselves with money and let us not be anti-money, just anti exploitation. And that's a, a huge lesson that I learned from Toy and that I'm honestly, I'm still in learning. Like, I'm still like, I welcome abundance. I welcome money. Like it takes so much in learning.
Pam: It totally does. Especially when our lineage it, it's part of bodies that have been exploited. And so, it's almost this like subconscious fight of, I don't want to exploit others because I come from people who were exploited. Yet to your point, we continue to exploit ourselves by doing the same oppression that we don't wanna do unto others. We do it to ourselves by overworking, by overgiving, by undercharging. Totally resonate with that. And it's something that I also share a lot in my work with all the anti-capitalist work that I've been doing. I've been challenged also by, by friends who are like, well, how do you talk about anti-capitalism when you live in a capitalist society? And so to your point is I always look at the principles of capitalism, which is oppression, greed, and exploitation. That is not something that I, that I subscribe to. And so what I share is like, how could I subscribe to the opposite, to the healed piece of making money, which is living in abundance, creating sustainable practices that support everyone, including myself, and building community, being part of a collective co-creation. Because it's not about individualism. I'm not grandiose, or you know, the only one that dust things. Everyone, we're all building together.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. I'm not a guru, I'm not a savior. I don't wanna save everyone. I can't, you know, it's absolutely needs to happen together. And I wanna go back to what you said, the overgiving, the undercharging. And I really invite women and fems of color to really sit with that. It has taken me so long to unlearn that behavior. And I also wanna name here, Dr. Frantonia and one of my, um, teachers from the Q’ero Inca Lineage, Maddy Lucian[?]. They've really helped me tounlearn that pattern because I, I come from generations of people that were raised in poverty, who to survive they had to overgive. You know, they also received the message that they were unworthy and what they gave had no value. And so that's also why they undercharged. I have vivid memories of my mother, I was raised by a single mother. We were raised working class, living paycheck to paycheck. I have vivid memories as the eldest daughter of like, I don't know if we're gonna make it this week. I don't know if we're gonna have enough to like stay in our home. Like I have vivid memories of that. I have vivid memories of my mom who, and I'm like getting emotional about this. She was a seamstress and she had a day job, but she had to work at night as well in our garage, making clothes for other people. And as a eldest daughter, like I remember going into the garage at like 10 at night, like mami, ya es hora de dormir, vente mami. And she would tell me like, estoy bien, mija, ahorita voy. I don't even remember. I, I have no idea what time she went to sleep. You know, I'm sure now as an adult, she did probably didn't get much sleep and she needed to do those things to survive, like to provide for me and my two sisters. But I remember she also had to work so hard because she felt like what she was making, there was no value. And looking back now as an adult, like she's so skilled and she's so talented, and she charged casi nada for what she was making. You know, like I inherited that. I inherited all of that. Of like not seeing what I had to give as something of value and undercharging, putting my family into debt. Like it's taken me a long time to unlearn that. So like all these things that we're sharing, like they're, you know, we get excited when we talk about abundance and like, being well and like, yes. You know?
Pam: Right.
Dra. Rocio: But it comes with a lot of grief and unlearning and shifting behavior is difficult. Unlearning or colonial programming, patriarchal programming is difficult. You know, it's, it's a lot of shadow work too. It can be hard.
Pam: And it's ongoing. Like, I don't know if you ever get to a point where you're like, yeah, cleared it all up, I'm good. For me, for example, I've done a lot of shadow work. My tool of choice is tapping. When I do that, I, I have uncovered a lot of memories, and since this we're in the topic of money, I will share one that was like fascinating for me to uncover. And it came through in a session and I have been tapping for a while that now I channel when I tap and there was a session that I was doing and I got really sad. And so my mentor that I was tapping with, I was like, I'm so sad right now. And I started crying and she was like, why are you sad? What's bringing up the sadness? And I was like, I dunno, I'm, I'm just really, so there's two, two memories that are coming through right now. It's so funny. So the one that made me really sadwas a memory that I had about not wanting to exist. And so I said, I, I'm feeling really sad because I believe in this moment that I don't want to exist, but this feels like a really, really, really old memory. Like I don't, I couldn't tell you when you work on memory stuff and tapping, you want to be very specific. So how old were you when this happened? What age were you when you got this memory? And I was like, I don't have an age with this. I, it's so ancient. I have no idea. Well, it turned out that it was a memory that I created in the womb. So my mom was pregnant with me and my dad happened to say, while I was in the womb. They were having a conversation. He was like, oh, I, I dunno, I don't know about this. He mentioned that he didn't know he, he didn't know about me being born. That was kind of like the gist of the conversation. And so in the womb, I created this memory that I like, oh, I don't need to be born because my dad doesn't want me to be born. And then so I tapped it out, I've processed it, I'm good. And when I had the conversation with my dad, cause I did, I was very curious. I was like, I need to call this man to see like, what did he say [laughs] that made me believe this. And he was like, well, if I said it is because I was worried that I wasn't going to be a good dad for you, not because I didn't want you to be born. And I was like, oh dang. But the memory that I created was that I don't deserve to live. Isn't that wild? All that to say, we have things in our subconscious that run programs that we don't even realize. And when we do that kind of work, it's painful but necessary, you know? It's one of those things like jump in it and be ready. Brace yourself.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. That, you know, it requires a level of courage, you know, to do this work, right? Like when I say to do the work, really doing it like emotionally, you know? Facing those experiences, confronting them, and emotionally, spiritually, somatically processing them, you know, psychologically processing them. All of that requires deep courage, you know? And so like we see on social media, like all, all the posts and like, you know, like, and like, and we tend to intellectualize it, you know, but the work itself, like it requires, this dedication, you know, to breaking cycles, to really doing things differently. And again, I bring us back to that sacred vessel. Like we need to clear those things out, out of our minds, our bodies, to be able to show up in these new ways that we want.
Pam: Yeah, because once I clear that, I didn't even realize, I mean, I had no idea. But then once I worked through that, I was able to show up more. And you, we were earlier before the recording, we were talking about visibility. And so once I was able to clear that piece, I was able to show up more and I was able to share more because I wasn't afraid to exist anymore. And it was like so deeply ingrained into my subconscious. I, this wasn't something like, oh, I'm afraid to exist. I couldn't voice it, but I just knew my body was freezing up when I was in that space. And when I was able to clear it, which it was, it was a journey, then I was able to, to continue to show up more.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. We spoke about the visibility, and those are like the benefits, right? Like those are the seeds that begin to be planted for the new Earth. Like we more, when we're doing decolonial work, when we're doing this, you know, cycle breaking, paradigm shifting work, more of our energy of our life force becomes available to us. And it, for me, especially the decolonial work that I do, like, we no longer are believing the colonial lies, and we're no longer unconsciously colluding with them, you know? And so that shows up as like, I can share my voice. I, I can show up more. I can embrace the gifts, the spiritual gifts that I carry, you know? And I think sometimes people tend to bypass all, all that difficult stuff. And then you don't show up in integrity. You don't show up authentically, you know? This is work that we cannot bypass.
Pam: Yeah. It's beyond the love and light. We have to go into the shadow.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. Love and light alone,will not birth the new Earth. I say that all the time, you know, and I also have compassion for the people that are so enamored by love and light, who are so enamored by New Age spirituality. You know, we talk a lot about like the white folks that do love and light and new age spirituality. And this, you know, may be controversial, but I think is also important to name like, there's a lot of black indigenous folks of color that also do new age spirituality, you know. And, and so many, you know, I also wanna say like so many like Latinas too that are colluding with that, you know? And I have compassion because we've all been indoctrinated by this system. But I think it's important now because we're seeing so much harm in the world. We're in a global crisis, like we really need to examine the ways that we live our life. Like is the spirituality that I'm practicing, is it in right relationship? Am I learning from people who are rooted in lineages? Are the practices that I'm engaging with, are they cultural appropriation? Do I know where they come from? You know, the way that I'm doing business, is that in right relationship? Am I exploiting people? Am I doing business with organizations, institutions that are exploited? Like all these things. We need, we are being asked to show up in integrity in the way that we live our life.
Pam: 100%. And I think it's work to show up with integrity, because I've engaged with other Latinas. I, in fact, I've shared this story many times, but it really, it truly marked me. I hired a Latina coach to support me because I was like, she's a Latina, me va a conocer, we're gonna be able to, you know, connect in, blah, blah, blah. And the moment she said, when somebody tells you that they can't pay, you tell them to pull out a credit card. I was like, excuse me, what? And she's like, yeah. And, and if they don't have a credit card, then you ask them, do you have a partner? Do you, can your parents pay for this? And I was like, oh my gosh. What? And so I challenged because that to me is a very oppressive way of doing business and it's truly leans on white supremacist principles. Who taught you this? She's learned from the system. Obviously. What was interesting is that when I challenged it, she was like, oh, that's a limited belief, Pam, that you don't think you're worthy of people paying you. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm the first one to say I have a ton of limited beliefs around money.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. But that's not it.
Pam: But oppressing people into paying me with credit cards is not one. [laughs] It was really painful for me to witness, especially from someone who I looked up to and from someone who I thought we had a connection and that's when I realized it's easier to stay out of integrity because the system has been created to serve that way, and it just runs because that's foundationally how it, it's it's created. For me, I'm like, if you don't have money to pay me, let's figure out a payment plan. I also want to have to make sure that I reach revenue stability with my business and let's figure out a way to make it work. You know, it's, I'm not so square, I guess, when it comes to that, but however, to live in integrity, I'm often challenged and often faced with like, oh, it's because you don't wanna get paid, or, oh, it's because whatever. That's not how businesses run. That's what I, I hear all the time and I'm like, you know what, f you because how business has been run for a long time, has really broken people's backs. And now I'm not for that.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. No, I love the way that you challenge this, you know? And it is a journey. It is a constant unlearning, it requires a constant presence, a constant questioning. Am I in integrity? You know what you said? It is so easy to not be in integrity, especially when you're doing business online. Like people appear one way, like on social media and publicly, and we would have no idea what they're really doing, you know? And so, the system makes it easy. It makes it easy for us to exploit people, to oppress people, to exploit ourselves. And so it really requires like this constant questioning, this slowing down, you know, and embodiment of the values. And for me,and, and this is like the spiritual piece and, and like maybe this is some of the decolonizing spirituality that people don't really wanna hear yet, but like that I feel is needed. For me, decolonizing spirituality is also that. Because if you are colluding with oppressive systems, if you are making money in an exploitive way, like I think about what is the spiritual debt that you are incurring for your own soul and for your lineage, what is the spiritual debt there?
Pam: Say more. That's so good.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah, because the truth is that we think that people with money colluding with oppressive systems like we unconsciously, we have been indoctrinated to believe that they're well, you know? That they're having the life, and maybe, maybe they're even verbally saying these things to you, but for me, I think about their spirituality. How is their soul doing? Are they truly happy? Are they truly at peace? Right. Do they embody harmony? Because we've, we've made the mistake in our, in, in doing this work that privilege equals wellness, money equals wellness, and that is not the case.
Pam: Yes.
Dra. Rocio: There are so many people that are financially well off and that are spiritually empty, that are so unwell, you know. With the white folks that I work with, like we, we also think like white people because they have white privilege, they have access to money that like, they're good. They're actually not, like after a year of working with them intimately, they're so like spiritually vacant and, and so even like black indigenous folks of color who are performing capitalism, I now think of what is truly like they might be saying to you, I'm spiritually well. I'm well in all the ways. I don't see that. I don't see that's the energy that they're carrying. I don't see, I don't see the harmony that they're embodying.
Pam: So many layers. [laughs]
Dra. Rocio: Yes. I can see your mind working there.
Pam: I know. I'm like, ooh where do we go. Let's take a quick coffee break.
***
Pam: Do you still not drink coffee?
Dra. Rocio: I drink mushroom coffee sometimes, and I know that's your favorite.
Pam: Ooh. That's my fave!
Dra. Rocio: Yes!
Pam: So do you make it, do you buy it? How does it work?
Dra. Rocio: I buy it because I, I only take it sometimes. I'm more like a herbal tea person, but yeah, I, I buy the, which I think is your favorite Four Sigmatic.
Pam: Yes.
Dra. Rocio: And I think I actually like learn about it from you. So kudos to you for that.
Pam: Use my code, stay shining, get 10% off. 15, I don't know.
Dra. Rocio: Yes.
Pam: I love it. What's your favorite tea?
Dra. Rocio: Um, I have this tea that if you are on Instagram Among The Wild Flowers Dr. Jackie makes is called Serenity Now. And she does these blends, herbal tea blends, and it's just like so divine. And, and it has like many, many different plants on there. But it, I, I just love the smell. I love the energy because she really like, talks to the plants, cultivates the plants, like she really loves it and you can feel it in what you're drinking, which as I'm saying that, like, and I've told her this before, it reminds me of my abuelita, you know, and the herbal tea she would make and the plants that she would cultivate. And so yeah, I'm just really tuning into that energy, like that remembrance that we're being called to.
Pam: Yeah, so good. I'm drinking orange juice today. I'm kind lame, but we'll go with it. Okay, let's get back to the show.
***
Pam: Dra. Rocio, there's so much to talk about and to uncover, how did your business change in the pandemic?
Dra. Rocio: This is such a good question. I wanna say it grew like invisibility. It grew in me showing up for it. Like, so many people realize the need to decolonize, you know, because we really were faced with the ways that oppressive systems were impacting our life. You know, like, it became more clear. And so my, my work increased in visibility and I was really challenged too to like, I wanna say like ground in my work. Like to really stand for it. And there were so many people that didn't want to do it, or, you know, in the, in the public sphere. Like I, I've been ostracized by doing decolonial work, like the spiritual community is like decolonizing, it's divisive, in the Latina community as well, which I don't identify as Latina, but Mexicanos get lumped into that sometimes, like, and so it hasn't always been easy, but I think in the pandemic, more people woke up to the need for the work.
Pam: How do you stay grounded with all the haters? [laughs]
Dra. Rocio: That's a funny question. And so I'm just laughing at, at that question.
Pam: I mean, would you call them haters?
Dra. Rocio: Um, that's, that's a good question. I don't personally use that word, but I grew up with that word in, in the barrio we use that word. My husband still like would probably use that word.
Pam: What would you use? What would you use?
Dra. Rocio: This is another good question. What would I use? I think just people that have a different path and also, you know, people that aren't in alignment, you know? Not everyone's gonna agree with our work. They have their own path. And sometimes I'm a mirror for the things that they don't wanna accept or the things that they're having difficulty with, you know? And also, I realize now that not everyone is meant to understand us. Not everyone is meant to see our path, you know? And I think that that's a uncomfortable truth, you know? Especially when we're doing like work where we embrace community, you know? And we come from a culture that really values the collective. It has been hard for me, honestly, to accept that, to also see that envy is real. You know, that jealousy is real. That has been very painful for me. And it wasn't until my elders said "a veces es envidia" and so don't focus on that. Don't focus, don't listen to them, don't focus on that. My mom has, you know, was the first one to tell me that. And I was like, okay, mama's looking out for me. But then when my elder said it, who is a Q'ero Inca elder. I'm a medicine woman in he Q'ero Inca lineage. And when he said it, I was like, oh, okay then this is a very real thing. And actually, yeah, he, he speaks a lot to envidia and the harm that it causes in our world. And so it's just something now that I accept, you know, that has been painful, uncomfortable, you know, because often it has been people that maybe at one time were close to us and then in some way begin to feel threatened by us, by no doing of ours. You know, we can be the most loving person, totally the most giving person, and they will still have envidia. You know, that's been a painful truth, but one that my elder has allowed me to accept. And now I just realize not everyone is meant to understand us. Not everyone will love us. Not everyone will accept what we're doing and just making peace with that. Like not even giving that energy, just making peace with it.
Pam: Absolutely. And like we said at the beginning, siempre hay un roto para un descocido, there's somebody that can serve them. If it's not you, then there's gonna be somebody else that can support them at the time. And I mean, it's happened, for example, with my clients, I've had people say, oh, I went to somebody else because they supported me in whatever they needed to support me at the time, and now I'm here with you because you can support me in this need that I have at this moment. And I understand that eventually there's gonna be a time when I don't serve them anymore and I'm hoping that they can find somebody that can support them. And the need that they have at the moment. Pero si, la envidia is real.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. There's so many conversations here that, that we can go to, and I know it feels like so fruitful and so necessary.
Pam: ADHD.
Dra. Rocio: No, I love this. I don't do linear things. Like, I embrace, the flow, you know, I just, I, I can't do that, it feels so limiting. But yeah, you know, going back to the envidia and also connecting it to the visibility that we've invited in to this conversation, especially for black indigenous women and fems of color. That fear, the fear of envidia, the fear of people not agreeing with us, the fear of people misunderstanding us, keeps us hiding, keeps us shrinking ourselves, you know, and really blocks our voice and our gifts, you know, and so on one hand, that's part of the colonial programming. To exist in fear. Right. Because we also have this ancient memory in our blood of like, if I am visible, I can be killed. Right? Like that's colonial trauma. Especially those of us that carry spiritual gifts. If, if I'm visible in my spiritual gifts, like we carry that memory of why we're afraid because it's in our DNA, it's in our blood. Our ancestors who were visible in their spiritual gifts were killed, persecuted. So that fear still comes up. And so that's the colonial trauma. But then there's also like this interpersonal, you know, disharmony that happens, feeling threatened. And for me, I feel like that's part of the patriarchy too. And part of like capitalism too, of like, there's not enough for us. And so we've been conditioned to like exist in competition. And, and to like not make room for other people feel threatened when other people stay in their gifts. And so I feel like this conversation is so important too, of like, and I say this to the women and fems that I work with all the time. You stepping into your power takes no power away from me. It actually invites in more power for all of us.
Pam: Oh my gosh, yes. Actually, I had a call in my mastermind yesterday where we talked about citing the people in your lineage that taught you the things that you know, you've been mentioning all of your elders and [inaudible], and all of the people that have shared different things and calling them in doesn't take away from the power that you're sharing with us. It gives credibility to hear it, on the other hand, I love this. That reminded me of the other memory that I wanted to share. That was in my DNA, that I worked through. I had this belief that if you made money, you died. And I didn't know why. And so when we uncovered it, I realized that that belief wasn't mine. So that's not something that I, Pam, truly believed in, but it's something that my mom believes in because her dad died because he was really prosperous man, era el de la tienda del pueblo, and because la gente le tenía envidia, le hicieron un trabajo and so, el trabajo le dió cáncer and he died like super soon after. When my mom was nine years old, she realized that if you have money, you die. So then, as you know, I was already in my mom's ovaries when this happened. As I grew up, I carried this memory with me and I believed it so much that I had to work through it in my thirties, and it's part of that DNA ingrained programming that you are carrying. That also prevented me from doing a lot of stuff because I was like, if I blow up for some reason, I'm gonna die. I didn't have an explanation as to why this happened. Pero, all that to say, yes.
Dra. Rocio: I'm really sitting with that because, and this is like an another layer that has been open with, you know, ancestral trauma and money. And, you know, I'm also aware in this moment that a lot of people know me for decolonial work, decolonial and spiritual work, but it like, there's so many layers to that. My work is spiritual, energetic, somatic, ancestral. You know, I do channelings and a psych-- like all of these layers, psychological. And so like we get into all these layers, you know, and so I'm just sitting with the, like the lived experience of all of this, you know, and what it has really done to our communities, right? Like when we were so exploited and colonized. How, like even la envidia, right? Like that's for me a consequence of living in these oppressive systems and how instead of focusing on the system itself, on the colonial, patriarchal, capitalist elite, how we, you know, take that violent energy to our own communities, to our own gente.
Pam: And how harmful that is and continues to be. It's painful to witness. And I don't know if you get this question, but I hear like, people ask me like, what do you do when your family is doing that harm and you exist with them?
Dra. Rocio: Ah, I do get this question a lot. I get it from the women in fems I work with. And so I'm just coming into the energy of harmony and balance, you know? In the Q'ero Inca lineage, that's what we always wanna come back to. Harmony and balance, you know? And you being in your own energy, in your own body, in harmony and balance, and you protecting yourself energetically, you know? And so I know this is difficult for, especially in "Latino households", you know, because we're so live with our families, you know, and so close to our families. And so I just invite here that like, you don't have to in a physical sense, you don't have to live with your family. If, if your family is abusive or harmful to you. You also don't have to like commune even if, if you don't live with them or if you do, you don't have to commune with them. Meaning, like, you don't have to always spend time with them if it's not nourishing to you. We were never taught that. Like you're just always con tu familia, you know? But you don't have to exist in that energy. And you also don't have to like accept that energy. Right. And so here I'm also speaking on a spiritual energetic level. You don't have to take that on. You don't have to accept it. So like, I feel like there's multiple layers there of like healthy distance that you can invite, you know, into your life. Because I know the people that may be listening, like there's various ages or like their living situation is different. And so there's different ways I think that we can invite healthy distance when it's our family. Like we, we don't actually have to accept all the things.
Pam: I would say maybe we create safety within yourself. Right? I mean, there's a lot of layers that I don't think with one answer we can come with a solution. There's a lot of layers of different situations, different scenarios, different needs. And sometimes it's even taken a tiny step away. Tiny. Tiny boundaries. Tiny boundaries.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. And I'm thinking here, our last conversation of like where we ended was talking about spirituality, and I'm thinking of like folks that were raised in like a religion that they no longer ascribed to. Like even that, like giving yourself permission to like, I don't believe in this anymore. You know? I actually had a conversation with my mom this past weekend about Catholicism and you know, really directly, I think indirectly we've been having conversations. She knows where I stand from a decolonial perspective. She knows like the things that I don't agree with with The Church, but now very directly, like we had a conversation that I don't agree with The Church. Like I don't know if my child is queer or gay. And if they're not gonna be accepted in the church, like I, I just can't be in that. I can't be in a church that doesn't accept gay, queer people. Like I don't, I can't, you know, the whole institution and the harm that it's caused. You know, like I had a direct conversation with her about that. And she talked about the things that she doesn't agree with. You know, I was raised to be critical of the church as much as I was raised in the church. I was raised to be critical of the church, especially in the ways that it treated mujeres, you know? And so now I joke with my mom, I still joke with her, like, you were kind of a rebel mom, like, qué piensas que iba a pasar conmigo? Like it was going to, you know, be even more rebellious and more like anti-institution, you know? And, and so she, you know, said mija like, these are my beliefs, this is my faith, and I'm always gonna hold onto them. And also, like, I don't agree with these things. And she's vocal about it. And I told her there are things that I still really resonate, like La Virgen de Guadalupe, like it's still like a divine feminine energy that I'm always gonna resonate with. And Mexican Catholicism is very much still indigenous too. Like a lot of our ancestors hid our ancestral practices there. You know, why I bring this up is an invitation for people to like, give themselves permission to like, what are the things that really resonate with me? What are the things that I invite into my life? What do I don't resonate with? What doesn't feel in integrity with me? Like that is the decolonial path. And giving yourself permission to do that.
Pam: And like you said, continue to question, because if there's an inkling that's like, this is not right, well ask. Why does it feel weird? Like, for me, in religion, it was my body, how, I remember having a conversation with my grandmother who was the most Catholic person you've like, she would go to misa every evening, every day, seven days a week. And I remember talking to her and she would be like, your body is sacred and it's supposed to be saved for your husband. And I was like, what? My body is my body. It's nobody else's body. What are you talking about? That prompted me to questioning a lot of things of how The Church thought of me as a prop rather than a human being. And it led me into multiple, multiple questionings of different things that then later I was like, yeah, this is not, this is not my thing, but yeah, question all the things.
Dra. Rocio: Yeah. And evenin this moment, I'm thinking too, and I, and I've been more sharing this messaging as well, is that when we do decolonial and anti-oppressive work, there's a lot of grief in that. You know, like maybe things that we did believe at one point and now like we're like, oh no, I really love that and I now realize that is oppressive. I now realize that's deeply rooted in colonization. Like there's a lot of pain and grief with that. And also like it's gonna look differently for each person, you know? And I wanna invite that in. And the energy that my work is shifting in two, is what I call decolonial alchemy. This is, alchemy is an innate gift and skill that we all carry, that we need to remember, that we need to cultivate, because when we're on the decolonial path, like we almost unconsciously wanna throw it all away. Like, todo es basura, like all of it is wrong. And actually,is it? Right. Like are there pieces that still resonate with you? Of course I, I'm not talking about the practices that are oppressive, you know, that are exploited, that are extractive, but are there some things that you learn? Are there some practices? Are there some energies like The Virgen de Guadalupe, that you still deeply resonate with? Can you keep those? And not like seeking for validation externally, honoring your own unique path? And so what is the alchemy that can be created for you? Because I think we focus a lot on the pain. I think we focus a lot on the oppression, and I don't think we focus enough on like the gifts that we've acquired along the way. The knowledge that we've acquired along the way, and even like our parents, our abuelitos, our ancestors, they were able to create alchemy. You know, they experienced all this violence. You know, they had to let go of some of their ancestral ways and they created new ways through alchemy. And so that's the energy that I wanna invite people into.
Pam: I love it. That's great segue for you to tell us about your new program.
Dra. Rocio: Yes. Thank you for asking. I am inviting black indigenous women and fems of color to a journey which we've been talking about, like this unlearning takes time. This unlearning takes presence, a slowing down, and so it's a nine month journey. It's sort of like an unschool, really. Decolonial Alchemy. Where we are unlearning the colonial programming and we are also reclaiming our spiritual sovereignty. And so every month I'm gonna show up live to provide monthly guidance, live guidance for those that show up to the unschool. I share teachings, meditations for them also to receive direct revelations from spirit, from their ancestors, from their guides. And it's really about what I call being keepers of the possibility, being keepers of the highest vision, being keepers of the new Earth instead of being keepers of the pain.
Pam: So good. Where can we find more about you and all the things, places and spaces.
Dra. Rocio: Thank you. Yes. So if they are interested in that, Decolonialalchemy.com for them to learn more and see if it calls to them, see if it resonates with them. If they'd like to journey with me, they can also find me on Instagram @dr.rosalesmeza and my website, Drrosalesmeza.com.
Pam: How exciting! This is, I mean, we can talk for days about all the things, but I guess we'll stop here.
Dra. Rocio: Yes, I know. I also wanna sit here and I've said this to you like, and I said this to my mom this past weekend, like if I ever have like a live panel offering. Like, I so want Pam, because you're like the Mexicana Oprah, and you're like so good at what you do here. And so I love just thank you, thank you for showing up and, and your gifts and embracing your visibility.
Pam: I'm working on it. I'm working on it. I, I've been uncovering a lot of shit that I'm like, oh, this is why, no wonder. I was, I was scared. So thank you for all always seeing me and, and for coming back. I think people are gonna have such a joy. I feel like I talked too much this time, but I, it also felt like we were catching up, so I wanted to share.
Dra. Rocio: Yes, yes. I'm so excited for what people are gonna receive and yeah, it's just an always an honor to be here.
Pam: Yes. So what's next for you? Is this new program, anything else that's coming up? Any other fun things that you are cooking?
Dra. Rocio: Mm, yes. So also, yeah. You know, I have, since we last talked, I think since we last talked, I wasn't working with white bodied folks and now I am.
Pam: Right.
Dra. Rocio: Being initiated as a Q'ero Inca [inaudible] medicine woman really opened my heart to like, you know. I had vowed actually as a professor after I left academia. I'm never gonna work with white people. And now, you know, I realize like if I'm truly about liberation, if I am truly a medicine woman who is going to restore harmony imbalance that I needed to work with everyone. And that it's not always this binary of like white people and people of color. It's more about integrity and our values. There's a lot of white bodied folks that are really down for this work that really want to dismantle these systems and create a new world with us, and so I am working with them. My offering with them is called Unlearning and Healing the White Colonial Mind. I'm actually going to rename that, and this is the first time that I'm sharing that here, Embodying Right Relationship is what I'm calling it now. It just feels like that's the energy, like the calling, Right Relationship, you know? That is what's going to allow us to birth the better world.
Pam: 100%. And I love that you gave yourself permission to change your mind. Because a lot of times, especially in this world, especially in the spiritual world, is like the cancel culture is so prevalent. I mean, I love that, you know, there's grace, compassion, and understanding that you can totally change your mind and say, look, maybe once I said this, but just kidding. Not just kidding, but like, I changed my mind and you're allowed to, I love that.
Dra. Rocio: I've evolved, right? Like evolution is so important for us to embrace, you know. And that's part of too the, the energy that inviting for folks because when we're doing decolonial work, and this is the irony again, like we end up recreating these harmful ways we have existed in rigidity and oppression, and then we do it to ourselves. I have to only be this way. I can never evolve, right? And evolution is so necessary. And for me, that's theintegrity and alignment and embodiment. What I'm offering to the world, how I'm showing up. Am I truly in alignment with it? Am I truly resonating with it? Because I, I want to be able to bring all of me, all my guides, and if they're telling me, and if I'm feeling in my body that this needs to shift, then I do it. Like, you know, even with Decolonial Alchemy, I totally, like, I don't have anything else coming in right now. And that can be scary. But also, like this was a deep call, like I needed to shift the energy of decolonial work. And so for folks that are listening, like maybe some of the things that I've said is controversial, like, don't be in the pain, focus on your wellness, like evolution, the ways that we harm ourselves. Talking about in media, talking about visibility, right? Like these are conversations that are not happening, that are necessary, right? Like so we need to do this work ourselves. And so I, at the end, middle end of last year, I was really like, I kept getting these messages. This needs to change. You have been doing this work in this way and, and people are on board, but it needs to change now. And I just could not, and like I could not ignore that. Like they kept getting louder and I'm like, but I have some stability here. And I just couldn't exist in that anymore. And honestly, like I wasn't being in right relationship with myself either. I was, especially last year, working so hard,holding space for so many people. I realize now the work that I do is so heavy and so I need to do like less of it. I need to do it in a different way. I need to call it a different energy for it to be not just financially sustainable, but energetically sustainable. And so for anyone listening that is like, thinks like Dr. Rocio like has it all together and like has all the things, like I'm right there with you. I'm figuring it out. I am allowing myself to evolve. I'm really in deep relationship with my work and my calling and shifting in the ways that I call you into shift. I'm living that too. I'm, if I'm not embodying it, how can I teach you? How can I guide you?
Pam: Oh my gosh, yes. So good. So good. Ugh, this has been lovely. We need to bring you like all the time. Let's not wait two years again.
Dra. Rocio: Yes, we won't. [laughs] Thank you Pam, for this beautiful illuminating conversation.
Pam: Thank you. Yeah. And I feel like we left some rabbits just kind of like in there to pick it back up becausewe kind of like had so many potential runways to go, to flight into, but we'll have another opportunity. Meanwhile go follow, subscribe to all the things. And the last two questions I guess, do you have remedio that you wanna share this time?
Dra. Rocio: Uh, remedio, you know, maybe this is not what people are expecting or, sleep is a remedio, rest is a remedio. Slowing down is a remedio.
Pam: I subscribe to that remedio all the time. So important. And I would say it's a way of resisting, like rest is a way of resistance,and it's a way to liberate yourself from the chains of overworking. So yes, I support. Do you have a quote or mantra that you live by this time?
Dra. Rocio: I have many. And so there's a few that are coming through first and kind of tapping into what you just said. Our wellness is our birthright. You know, I know a lot of people do say like, it's, it's resistance. And so I also just wanna invite people into like, when we do resistance, it's necessary, but we cant always exist in that fighting energy. And so, our wellness is our birthright. And if we are always fighting, right, like if we're always fighting, if we're always tied up into the pain, then what energy will we have to create a new world?
Pam: Make it easy. Yay. Thank you so much again for coming to Café con Pam, this has been awesome and I can't wait to have you one more time. All the times. So many more times.
***
And that was my conversation with Dra. Rocío,listeners. What did you think? What were your thoughts? What resonated with you? What didn't? What was controversial? What perhaps tugged inside of you, maybe from one of the things that we mentioned, maybe at one of your beliefs was challenged. And one of the things that I noticed early in my healing journey was that when people would say things that I wanted to unlearn or my body knew that it was time to unlearn it, I would feel my immediate body response was like, Oh! How dare they say that. Because I do a lot of somatic work with tapping. It's very nervous system driven. I'm now much more connected to the way that my body responds rather than my thoughts. And so my invitation to you is to check in with yourself to see how did your body respond more than how did your thoughts respond to what we were sharing? Because was it something that your body was like, oof, this feels like truth, yet I'm not sure if this is my truth yet. I'm curious. Let me know. Share it. As usual, screenshot it, tag me. And I don't know if you realize, but it truly makes my day when I get a tag and somebody's like, oh my gosh, I listened to this conversation. It was great. And sometimes I might just like re-share it and put a, a heart on it, and maybe I don't comment too much, but it really does make my heart sing when I see you taking the time, because you're taking time out of your day to take a screenshot and do the whole thing, to share it in your story and make it fun and exciting, and use gifs to illustrate it a little bit more. It's so great and I'm so grateful that you do that. So I want to make sure that you realize that I don't take it for granted. Just like I don't take for granted that you're here and that you're still listening all whatever minutes that we are in. Because if you make it to this point, and I know you message me all the time and you're like, yes, we do listen to all the end, so you don't have to keep telling us because we do listen and you've proven it to me. Yes. Oh my gosh. Do I owe you stickers? If I do, please, I think I owe somebody a sticker. Send me a message and be like, Hey, I never got 'em. And if you never got 'em, it's because I forgot to send them because I was traveling. Very random. But this is, this is what you get at the end of Café con Pam.
If you are new here and you're like, what is going on? Welcome to Café con Pam. I hope you feel at home. I hope you choose to come back. And if you're wondering, I'm not sure if I wanna come back, well, I invite you to subscribe. So your phone has the podcast or the newest and the latest podcast on your phone upon you opening the podcast app next. We share episodes every week, sometimes twice a week, sometimes every two weeks. Hey, I'm a human being and I wanna give a shout out to the team. Shout to Nancy and Maru because without them, this podcast would not exist. And I will acknowledge that I am often the bottleneck of the episodes. So if it is that we are posting the episode like every two weeks is because it's my fault. I probably haven't done something. So I am the one to blame. Nonetheless we're here typically every week. Yes, definitely subscribe, if you feel call to leave a rating. Five stars are appreciated. Leave a review, are much more so appreciated, and I don't take your time for granted. Share your thoughts. The questions that I invite you to think about is how would you tell somebody else about Café con Pam? What if you were to share Café con Pam with your best friend? And the other question that you can ask yourself is, what was happening before you joined Café con Pam? What were you expecting and what was the end result? Once you ended the episode, maybe was there a transformation? Maybe did you leave with some knowledge? Those are some things that you can share and I so, so appreciate every single one of your reviews and it's so nice for you to share what you think and how the stories have changed your perspective, or how the stories that we share inside Café con Pam give you hope. I had someone message me like, I listened to Café con Pam when I don't wanna get up or when I want to hear just some motivation and I hear somebody's story and how they overcame some hardship, and I'm like, okay, fine, I'll get up. [laughs] That's amazing. That's amazing. Amazing. And I am so grateful that not only do you take the time to listen, but also to leave the reviews. And I say this all the time, but I truly mean it.
Let's stay connected. I love to stay connected. Right now, I don't think I've given the update as to why we moved to Discord, but we moved to Discord because I don't like to use the big bookplatform. I don't think Facebook groups are friendly to community build, so I never wanted to do a Facebook group, even though I tried at some point in the last, I don't know, six, seven years. So then we moved into, uh, an outside community and then it got hacked and then it started getting like all of these random people sending messages and posting things that I was like, what is going on? So if you're still in that other community, I am so sorry, I don't know how to fix it. So we opened up Discord, a Discord community, and you can access it by going to Stayshining.club. All you have to do is enter your email. Open a Discord account, it's free, and then you'll be able to see, enter our server, the Stay Shining server, and then we have multiple channels there where we can talk about different things. And so I think it's a way that keeps our conversations more centered and grounded and organized, so we can be a little bit more focused when we engage with each other. And that's been a fun place. We don't have a lot of people right now, which is okay. I'm more about quality rather than quantity. And I want people to truly be there and truly be there and be involved into the conversations and what we do. And I'm so happy that we started that. So if you wanna hang out there, sometimes in the Café con Pam channel, what I do is I share sneak peeks of the people that I interview. And so if you want to be the first to know of who's coming next, then definitely join us, because we also have co-working time. If you are in one of my paid programs, then you have access to co-working hours and we're able to hang out in different ways. So it's super fun. I'm hanging out in there every day, literally. Other ways to connect is social media. We can stay connected through social media if that is your thing. I know I keep talking about that. I'm leaving social media, but you tell me not to and I'm doing it for you. So on social media @cafeconpampodcast, both Instagram and Facebook, that's where I hang out mostly. I share my adventures living in two states. Right now I'm in California and Denver and I've been sharing a lot about this now and ugh, how sad it is to live in this now. But I'm back in San Diego this week, so you probably can hear the pep in my voice because it's nice to see some sun. I'm a creature of the tropics. I don't know if that makes sense, but I like sun. Anyway, that's where you can find me. Head over to cafeconpam.com if you wanna learn about my work and all of the things that we do. Right now, my focus in this moment is to support small business owners who are looking to liberate themselves from the damages of Calladita Culture, which is we grew up hearing, "calladita te ves más bonita",and so with doing that, we are removing a lot of white supremacist principles that have been embedded into the business building process. And together we are dismantling all of that and we're removing the barriers and the challenges that we've been so indoctrinated to believe in. But I'm not gonna go into that rant. Go to cafeconpam.com, learn more about that. And that's it.
Anyway, happy to be here. Happy you're here. Thank you for lending me your ears and your time. If you say the word liberation, I'm gonna send you some stickers. Liberation for this episode. If you made it to this point. Ahí viene el Thor corriendo, ya me voy, send you so much love, y never forget to stay shining!