260 - Humanizing Storytellers with Sarah Lowe and Adrian Escárate

Jun 19

Sarah Lowe and Adrian Escarate in Cafe con Pam

260 - Humanizing Storytellers with Sarah Lowe and Adrian Escárate

Listeners, we're back this week with Sarah Lowe and Adrián Escárate.

Sarah E. Lowe is the Director of Research + Impact at Define American and a Ph.D. candidate in Health Promotion and Policy at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Both a health equities communications researcher and practitioner, she has over twenty years of experience crafting cross-platform media campaigns for The Walt Disney Company, Nintendo, Cigna, PBS, and Discovery Channel. She has also been at the forefront of launching large-scale netroots movements in conjunction with arts-based nonprofits including American Promise, Question Bridge: Black Males, and Land of Opportunity. Sarah holds a bachelor’s in English from Wittenberg University, a master’s in Professional Writing from the University of Southern California, and is currently finishing her dissertation research, a mixed methods study called, “American Dreaming,” exploring resilience and post-traumatic growth in undocumented storytellers who use their personal narratives for immigration advocacy.

Adrián Escárate is the deputy chief of staff at Define American. He has been an immigrant rights advocate for over a decade, initially getting involved in the undocumented youth movement push for the federal DREAM Act in 2010. As a DACA recipient and storyteller, he has vast experience sharing his story with media at the local and national level, including television, newspapers, and podcasts, in support of immigrant rights and immigration reform. Adrián holds an M.A. in Communications specializing in Electronic Media and B.A. in Communications Arts from St. Thomas University. He is also a certified professional tennis coach with more than a decade of experience coaching high performance junior and college tennis players.

During this episode we talked about:

07:58 - How Sarah came into this work
10:28 - Growing up in a bubble
13:41 - Parasocial contact theory
14:37 - Adrián's immigration story
14:51 - Finding out he was undocumented
18:57 - Change the culture to change the policy
28:12 - The Roadmap to Resilience for Undocumented Storytellers report
31:33 - Changing structures
34:34 - Learnings and recommendations
40:30 - Everyone should be paying
43:38 - The future of the research

Hello everyone. This is Pam de Cafe con Pam, the bilingual podcast that features Latines and people of the global majority who break barriers, change lives and make this world a better place. Welcome to episode 260 of Cafe con Pam. Today we have a conversation with Sarah Lowe and Adrian Escárate.

Sarah is the Director of Research + Impact at Define American and a Ph.D. candidate in Health Promotion and Policy at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Both a health equities communications researcher and practitioner, she has over twenty years of experience crafting cross-platform media campaigns for The Walt Disney Company, Nintendo, Cigna, PBS, and Discovery Channel. She has also been at the forefront of launching large-scale netroots movements in conjunction with arts-based nonprofits including American Promise, Question Bridge: Black Males, and Land of Opportunity. Sarah holds a bachelor’s in English from Wittenberg University, a master’s in Professional Writing from the University of Southern California, and is currently finishing her dissertation research, a mixed methods study called, “American Dreaming,” exploring resilience and post-traumatic growth in undocumented storytellers who use their personal narratives for immigration advocacy.

Adrián Escárate is the deputy chief of staff at Define American. He has been an immigrant rights advocate for over a decade, initially getting involved in the undocumented youth movement push for the federal DREAM Act in 2010. As a DACA recipient and storyteller, he has vast experience sharing his story with media at the local and national level, including television, newspapers, and podcasts, in support of immigrant rights and immigration reform. Adrián holds an M.A. in Communications specializing in Electronic Media and B.A. in Communications Arts from St. Thomas University. He is also a certified professional tennis coach with more than a decade of experience coaching high performance junior and college tennis players.
Listeners this episode is a little bit different because we have two guests, first of all, we typically only have one. And because also I chose to have Adrian and Sarah on, because I think the work that they have done with Define American it's revolutionary in the sense that it can be used for other companies to learn about storytellers, about what happens to undocumented folks, the things that people feel when they're living in this country. While it's a privilege to be able to live in this country, it's also frightening for some people because some literally wake up every day, not knowing if they'll get detained and deported. And I think the report that they worked on, that we talked about is one that humanizes the experience of those storytellers. And I think research and data is important and it's also important to humanize the data. When I read the report, I found it really insightful, and like I said, during the interview delicately created with a lot of tact and gentleness.

***
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***
I hope you enjoy the interview. We talked about a lot of things. We talked about Adrian's story. We talked about Sarah's story and how they got involved in the work. We talked about the report, and I think if you are part of a company, I think you would benefit from hearing it as far as how people are treated. If you own your own business, this is something that you will benefit as far as how you treat others. And I think it's, it's a helpful episode just to also help us see how we see storytellers. Y bueno, sin más, here's my conversation with Adrian and Sarah.

***

Pam: Welcome Sarah and Adrian to Cafe con Pam. How are you?

Sarah: Thank you. Good. Really glad to be here.

Adrian: Same, same.

Pam: All right. Well, today we have two people in this show, so we'll go back and forth. I'll call, I'll call in your names so we know who's gonna go where, so we'll start with Sarah and we always start with this question at Cafe con Pam, what is your heritage?

Sarah: I am a white Midwestern girl for rural Indiana.

Pam: Indiana. And Adrian?

Adrian: I am an immigrant from Santiago, Chile, grew up in, in Miami, Florida.

Pam: In Miami. And where do you both work?

Sarah: We both work for Define American, a non-profit that uses our platform to raise up the voices and stories of primarily undocumented immigrants. But immigrant storytellers all across the nation.

Pam: Let's keep it a little bit on the Cafe con Pam theme, and then we will jump into, into your project. That was super great to read. And it's still in the works actually.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: How many years is it gonna be total, five?

Sarah: Probably four when it's complete, but, um, we kind of just see it as the starter of a trajectory that it just keeps growing.

Pam: So Sarah, tell me, how did you land into doing this type of work?

Sarah: Well, Hmm. I'm formally undocumented myself, not in the US. I fell in love and I overstay my visa in another country and my husband and I, you know, we've had many visa and immigration issues, problems, you know, it's, it's affected the way we have loved and been together. And we've now been together, uh, nearly 20 years and I was working in well, first book publishing and then more digital media. But, um, my heart was always pulled to immigrant communities and immigrant immigration issues. And I went back to school for a PhD in community health education, and that's was really the pull towards immigrant storytellers and finding ways that narratives can really change the world, like the science of how stories change the world. That's when I found my way to Define American. First, I was a digital strategist and then developed our research, uh, department. And Adrian has been working with me on the American Dreaming project, which we'll we'll get to, which is like, it's my great love. And it is my dissertation.

Pam: Oh, wow!

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: I went to college in the Midwest and I actually was a migrant recruiter. One of my jobs that I had, I have the privilege to have, I was born in the US. I have a brother who wasn't, I consider myself an immigrant because it's I'm backwards. So I was born here and then I grew up in Mexico and then came back as an adult. And so I was still the immigrant. I just happened to have papers, which was like a huge, huge privilege that I don't take for granted. Right. And I still faced, I went straight to college in the Midwest where I was like, where do I go? Because I either, my best friend is a white girl from the Midwest and my other really, really good friend is a black woman, but I didn't find any people that were like me until I became a migrant recruiter, which my role was to visit immigrant families who would go into the Midwest and work the fields. But they weren't in college with me. This is like 17, 15 years ago. Now there's, their kids, I'm, I'm assuming they're now in college in those colleges. So when you share that you're from Indiana and how you were kinda like attracted to the immigrant community, was it your experience being an immigrant? Or was your experience in where you grew up?
Where was that pull?

Sarah: I really grew up in a bubble, you know, um, I always, as a kid, I was really yearning for a world that was bigger than what was around me. I grew up in predominantly white, rural towns. My dad is, is a farmer. So growing up around the farms and in the machinery and like, you know, all of that, but just sort of knowing that there was a world bigger than, than what I was experiencing. And so yearning for it. I met my husband when I was studying abroad. And just this, this, like fire of like meeting people from all over the world and different ideas and ways of thinking about things and different traditions. And it was like, that's just where I wanted to live life was in that experience. And when, when we sort of settled, when we first got married, was out in California, we were in San Francisco and then in LA and we were looking to make friends. And I then is when I started volunteering, uh, as an ESL tutor and having this amazing experience of getting to work with and learn from and befriend new immigrants, like primarily the library and refugee community and making friends in that community and seeing American life from a totally different point of view. I was starting to see deep barriers that existed that felt really, really wrong and made me really angry and made me not be able to, to live in the world as comfortably. And that was sort of the draw, the draw to the work, to wanting to hear the stories of my friends and be bigger, and more represented and seen and them to be seen. And I really, I mean, this is going back years ago, but I still have this hope that when more people hear and see and know the stories of the people who are just around around them naturally, you know, that we see the true fabric of what America is. We will see an embracement of each other, and that, that will start to change some of the boundaries and like challenges that exist.

Pam: Thank you for that. One thing that I often think about is how the coast, you know, are full of immigrants. And then you go into middle American and middle United States. It's a very different lifestyle. And even with you sharing this, you had to go to the coasts to kinda like...

Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

Pam: You know, phase a lot of things. And so, I don't know, I feel like a lot of the, this contentness[sic] with immigration comes from people who've not experienced, really seen the humanity of immigrants.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. Or not looking around to see. So we do research in different areas of media at Define American and in our entertainment research, what we see is people in rural areas will self-report that if they are regularly watching immigrant characters on TV, there's this theory, this academic theory called parasocial contact theory, which means all of our brains are wired from the beginning of time to, uh, see faces. And the more we see faces, the more that we feel like, oh, that person is my kin. And what we have seen through the research is when people see immigrant characters on TV, like Mateo in Superstore that we consulted on, when they're seeing Mateo season after season and they get to know him and, and see him in their brains, like deep into our, our cellular bodies, they think that is my kin. I know him, I feel for him. And they self-report a more welcoming stance towards immigrants. And while all of that is amazing and I really believe in that work, it always stumps me that people will self-report that they know no immigrants.

Pam: Yes.

Sarah: And I hope that it also makes them look around because of course they do.

Pam: Adrian. So when did you come to the US?

Adrian: Oh, we're starting from the beginning, beginning. Okay. I got to the US when I was three from Santiago with my, my parents and my older brother, and grew up in Miami, my entire life. I found out that I was undocumented at 12 years old when my grandfather was sick in Chile and I didn't understand why my uncle, my dad's brother was able to go back and see my dying grandfather and, and my dad and, and, and our family wasn't able to. And I remember that my parents sat my brother and I down, and they were like, look like we can go but then we can't come back into to the US. Like we risk being able getting the 10 year bar and, and not being able to, to come back to the country that I grew up in. So at 12, I didn't really understand that. I obviously thought that it was unfair, but I, it didn't really hit me until many other undocumented immigrants started growing up. They hit high school. They they're trying to get their social security to apply for college and trying to get their driver's license. That's when, like I started seeing how my road was, had a lot more roadblocks than friends and people around me. I didn't start getting fully into activism until 2010, which was the DREAM Act push of 2010. And I was in college. I was actually, there's very few undocumented folks in college, even before the DACA came out, um, in 2012 that were able to go. So I was thankful to be able to attend college on a scholarship, academic and athletic scholarship, cuz I'm also a tennis player and I was in college and there was a, another undocumented friend of mine that was like, Hey, like we're trying to get the DREAM Act to pass. Like, would you get involved? And. I just kind of fell in love with the movement. And I actually, I felt safer being in the movement and I'm, I'm actually getting goosebumps right now. Cause I felt like it was a time where so many undocumented people were coming out and being vocal about like their statuses, their immigration statuses. And I felt like if like something happened to me, like if I was at a rally or if I got detained or something like that, like friends and people that I didn't even know, like in person, would just jump in and start like calling congressional representatives and starting petitions and, and, and doing like social media campaigns, where Facebook campaigns and all that was just kind of starting. So, yeah, that's why I, I got involved in the movement and I've been in and out of the movement for the past 10 years. And another note on that is that like I found Define American in 2020, but I, I had known of the DA since Jose Antonio Vargas, our founder had come out undocumented in 2011. Which was like mind blowing. Like it was crazy like, cuz I had just been in the movement for maybe like, like less than a year and then like, boom, like this story hits the New York times magazine and it's like, oh crap. Like there is a journalist that's also undocumented. I feel like it was just like a, a huge milestone in, in the undocumented movement. And I just always wanted to be engaged with him and luckily we had a friend in common, Gabby Pacheco who's, uh, been instrumental to the undocumented youth movement. And we connected like many undocumented folks connect on social media. And I met Jose for the first time in 2014 in Miami when he was debuting his documentary Documented. And then we always kind of kept in contact here and there. And I always wanted to be involved in, in the work that Define American did, especially when, obviously as a storyteller myself. So when I had the opportunity to, to apply for, for a position with DA, like I took it right then and there. And it was also at a time where I was doing a lot of storytelling work, but more like on the policy side. And there was unfortunately like no movement, um, at all of any of any policy passing. So it was like we were sharing our stories, pouring our hearts out in Congress, on the hill in DC and like nothing was happening. And unfortunately that's where we are right now, at least policy wise. But that's where, like, I kind of reoriented the way that I thought about my own storytelling when I got to Define American, because I feel, and honestly believe that we have to change the culture of like how immigrants are viewed in America for then to be policy change. I mean, for that to be representative in the, at the ballot box, It's slower. I don't know. I hope obviously something happens and that's what I do this work for. But maybe I'll, I won't be here before anything like significant like happens cuz it's such slow work, but it's the necessary work that needs to, needs to occur.

Pam: For sure. You talk about the immigrant movement and one piece of it is DACA, but there's been, you know, farmer rights. And like all of the stuff that's happened for generations. And so I hear you, when you say, like, I don't know if I'll be here to see the change, and that doesn't mean that we're not gonna put a little granito de arena, and I, you know, like a little pebble in the, in the work.

Adrian: Yeah.

Pam: What do you think about that, Sarah?

Sarah: Well, the reason why I love the American Dreaming project so much is because it literally makes my job into sitting and listening to storytellers like Adrian and talk about their lives, and it always makes me lean in 'cause you've got good stories and you've got people with such like open hearts and so authentic and straightforward. I mean, I was gonna say Adrian's the best of them, but there's no best. It's just all good. What it makes me really think is one of the participants in our research was talking about, he had this realization that the movement, didn't start with him. And the movement wouldn't end with him, just as migration didn't start with his parents and migration wouldn't stop with him. And that he saw the movement as, and he didn't say it this way, but this is the, the picture I got in my head is like holding each other through the generations. And that when we can look at the immigrant rights movement, as that of like holding the generations, what he was saying is then it gave him the relief to be able to take a break when he needed, and take time out for him or take time out for his specific, like family and issues and come back to the movement. And what I really particularly appreciate and Adrian, you can say if our research is what made you lean into this, but I really appreciate that Adrian always says I've been in and out of the movement.

Adrian: Yeah.

Sarah: Because I think that's really important to say no one person has to carry it all. And also it's okay to take a break cuz when you take a break everybody's gotcha.

Adrian: Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's why I kind of say it like that, cuz that's literally like how I view my experience in the immigrant rights movement, because at first, like I was like, gung-ho[?] activist, like I wanted to like, I don't know, uh, do sit-ins and block traffic and scream at like representatives in their faces to pass something. And then as I got older and especially like, I'll be frank, like when I got DACA, my life changed. Like I was at a point where like I was thinking about leaving the country and just going back to Chile or going somewhere else. Cuz I like, it was just too much for me to, to bear all the doors slammed in my face for opportunities. And I always say like, if it wasn't for DACA, I, I don't know if I would be here. So when I got DACA, like I took a step back from the immigrant rights movement, cuz it was such a big win as a movement in general. But also I felt like I wanted to like get on with my life, quote unquote, and do other work. And that's why I took a step back. I let other leaders come into the fold and I didn't wanna keep taking space. But I felt like when the Trump administration happened, it was such a regression in storytelling and, and dreamers and undocumented people coming out because there was so much fear as to what might happen. So I felt like when the Trump administration came in, like I was comfortable being a, a storyteller and a spokesperson for this issue so much before that I felt like I needed to be out there again, sharing my story and confronting all the hatred and attacks that the Trump administration brought to the immigrant community.

Pam: I was gonna bring that up totally, that when you say that you're in and out, so thank you Sarah, for like circling it. It's so good. Because I feel like in a way it gives people permission to say your mental health is important. And it also allows space for a movement that is compromised of a lot of hands and like Sarah, to your point of like generations, to people who have done it. And so to also relieving yourself from the fact that if you need a mental health day, month, year, whatever, there's gonna be still other people doing it. And I think that's why it's so important to bring awareness to the work and for others to get involved, because it's not one thing that is only responsibility for one person. It's like a combination of a lot of people. Let's take a quick coffee break.

***
Pam: Do you both drink coffee?

Sarah: Oh yes.

Adrian: I do a lot. [laughs] I already had like my three cups for the day today.

Pam: Three cups?

Adrian: Usually.

Pam: What's your form of brewing, you're from Chile. So, let me see.

Sarah: So bring it Adrian.

Pam: Right.

Adrian: No, I, I not, I, I am totally gonna underwhelmed this conversation. Uh, cause I don't have like a big coffee pot, thankfully, cuz then I'd drink even more coffee. So I do the French press and which like I get a cup and a half outta that one. And then I have an espresso machine as well. And, and I'll do like espresso, like in the afternoon.

Pam: Did you know that one cup of coffee gives you like, the caffeine really doesn't exit your body for eight hours?

Sarah: Wow.

Adrian: I had no idea.

Pam: So I don't know if you get much sleep. I mean, you drink coffee in the afternoon.

Adrian: I mean, growing up in Miami, like the colada, right? Yeah. The, the Cuban coffee is strong. So I mean, it doesn't do much to me honestly anymore.

Pam: So it's in your blood now?

Adrian: Yeah. I think it's like a tolerance already.

Pam: Wow! I'm on one cup of coffee a day and that's plenty for me. And then midday, I drink matcha.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Pam: Because it still gives a little caffeine energy boost. So it kinda-- Cause you know, the midday like grogginess, if I take, drink so matcha, then it's, It doesn't keep me up all night.

Sarah: I was hearing on one of your other podcasts that you said it stopped you from procrastinating. Is that right?

Pam: Yeah. Well, because I do, so Magic Mind is one of my sponsors, which they do a little match, a drink. So it's like literally two ounces and I make it an ice latte.

Sarah: Oh.

Pam: That one already comes with all the things. So it's matcha, honey, adaptogenics, nootropics. So they add mushrooms that focus my brain. And then when I don't have Magic Mind, I make my own concoction. So I buy matcha tea from Peru, which is a local San Diego tea house. And they started making their own matcha too, which is great. Add local honey, which helps with allergies.

Sarah: Yes. Right.

Pam: And then I add my own mushrooms to, so I make my own kind of Magic Mind if I don't have Magic Mind at hand.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: And that's what helps with my focus.

Sarah: Wow.

Pam: Yeah.

Adrian: Awesome.

Sarah: That's amazing.

Pam: If anyone out there has ADHD, matcha is like--

Sarah: I'm thinking tired parent. Yes.

Pam: Oh, for sure. For sure. Well, the thing is that when you drink a lot of coffee, your adrenals get like really overworked. And so if you're just really looking for energy, green tea is, is really good. And like in the form of matcha, you know, matcha is like one of those love, not so much type thing. I've met people that either love matcha or they're like, Ugh, not my thing, but green tea.

Sarah: Yeah. I'm two cups in the morning, but I've started getting fancy and that we got a new coffee machine that has one of those.
What do you call it? Frothing bars. So I warm the milk and then froth it in the morning and that's, that's been really amazing.

Pam: How fun. So you make yourself your own latte.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: Nice. See Adrian?

Adrian: I know I have a, I have frother too. I just--

Sarah: Oh, he's fancy. He's just trying. He's, he's just trying to act like he's not, but he is fancy.

[laughs]

Adrian: I don't always use it. My dad loves like, he, he, my dad should be a barista cause he, he loves making coffee and being fancy with it, but I wish I could do like the little, little figures and stuff like that. Little flowers and.

Pam: It's really hard. I was a barista at some point in my life.

Sarah: Oh.

Pam: And one of my friends that was a barista, he was like super into it. Like, if you wanna talk about a purist coffee drinker, like he would throw away lattes that didn't have the perfect flower. And I'm like, look like it's all about the taste. Just give it to me. So, okay. Let's go back to the show.

***
Pam: Let's talk about this report that you two worked on it and one more person, right?

Sarah: Valeria Rodriguez.

Pam: So how did this come about?

Sarah: When define American was facing, you know, Trump coming into office and all of the horribleness that was leading up to it. Internally, well, very specifically what happened was at the time we had a digital story bank, so people could record their stories and share them as videos on our site. And they'd live there as, as a library. And people started writing to us and asking to take their stories down, all kinds of folks, documented, undocumented, allies, folks of all stripes were feeling scared. And that was concerning to us in that we saw the rise of fear and at Define American, we really lean into the legacy of the LGBTQ rights movement and Harvey Milk calling us to come out, right. Jose, our, our founder, Jose, Antonio Vargas, he says we really come out to let people in, which I think is, is so beautiful. And we saw this trend of people wanting to, to not be out, which is then to not let others in. And we asked ourselves, what do we need to know to continue to ask people to come out and share their stories and be very visible and, and braver. Folks had always needed to be very brave, but in this moment it was different. And we started talking about doing research to find out what we needed to know from the storytellers themselves, for them to feel supported and what they, they needed. And so the research started out in that way. It was, I believe, 18 life history interviews, and we did 40 surveys on mental health. And the survey findings were interesting in that once, you know what we found, you can see it, right? So, um, 80% moderate to high PTSD, but 95% resilience. So folks who have gone through a lot and are still fighting, and thriving. And then when we started doing the life history interviews, Adrian and I have have both done those interviews and they're just moving, you know, they're anywhere from 60 minutes to three hours. It's just six questions, and we ask participants to just tell your life story. And in their life stories, what we were really hearing was the relationship to story and what it feels like to take your personal memories and put them out for public consumption and to have to keep revisiting those stories over and over again. And the ways in which the structures that have built up around the movement have done both good and not so good. With storytellers and their stories. And so with the research, what we saw is a real call to action around nonprofits that work with storytellers of we can change our systems and structures, so that storytellers know that they don't always have to be sharing their stories, that they get to choose what pieces of stories they share and when they share it, and when they don't. Just because someone has told a story a hundred times over very publicly, that doesn't mean that we can assume that they should tell that story again. And the should is the key part, because a lot of times what we are hearing in the interviews is that once you tell it, once people reach out and be like, Hey, we're ready for you to tell that story again. And when you look at, at, at mental health, we just don't operate that way as humans. Sometimes it feels okay to tell a, a story or a piece of a story, but because of trauma and, and life in general, sometimes that story hits you in a different way and we need more and greater awareness that when we are working with storytellers, it's an honor a privilege and we need to respect and honor them as humans and their stories and them as storytellers and let them guide that process. So there was a lot in that, around what storytellers needed to be healthier in their storytelling. And what we were seeing broadly in the movement was, um, there was awareness around bringing more support and being more vocal, about meditation and yoga and self care and therapy and what you can do on an individual level to care for yourself. But when we look at these, these stats, These are storytellers that are 95% resilient. They know, they know how to take care of themselves. We need to create structures that allow them to take care of themselves and do not rely on their resilience. And so we did the research and then really it was, it was Valeria and Adrian who looked back through all of the research and were pulling out the recommendations for the report. And the recommendations are really the stellar piece of the report it's-- I had no real part in it, so I can say I'm so freaking proud. They did such a nice job in speaking to what the storytellers were trying to speak up, to say to these structures that could better support.

Pam: I love it. And I, I mean, I read the report and it's so delicately written in a way that is supportive and at the same time it shares data. Like it, I love data. And like, I also have to remind myself that we're dealing with humans, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: Seeing this report, I was very curious, reading it, to see how it was handled, the fact that you have to report data. So it's a, it's a report. Cause you're reporting data points and everything is shared in a way that is supportive to those who were part of it. So, Adrian, how was it for you as an immigrant yourself to be a part of this?

Adrian: Yeah, I mean, with a former coworker of Valeria Rodriguez, I remember when Sarah asked me if I, if I wanted to be a part of the project of the report, like, I didn't know what I was getting into at first. Um, but then as like we were having conversations and we were having meetings and just like Sarah sharing, what the research was showing. It was like, so cathartic for me to hear like everything, all the findings and, and, and what folks were were sharing in the, in the longer life history interviews because like everything that was shared and that I read, like I had seen either I personally had seen, or I had heard being involved in the movement for so long. And that's why I think the recommendations kind of came more like really organically for, Valeria and I, because we had seen it, we had seen it through our lived experiences. Val as a US born citizen, but also an immigrant herself and immigrant experience. So we had seen it through our own yeah, through our own families, through our own friends, what was being found in the research. So like something would come up and be like, oh, I experienced this situation where on a day that DACA was in Congress, I had seven reporters DMing me asking me what my take was on it. And I was like, I can't think about this right now. Like we lost again in not getting anything passed. So like, I remember like telling like a reporter from the BBC or something like that that had DMed me. I was like, look, I can't talk right now. I cannot talk tonight because I need space. So yeah, like that's where the recommendations trickled in. Um, like I said, really naturally, because a lot of the findings were exactly what either I had gone through, or what I had seen from other friends and family in the movement.

Sarah: And I think Adrian has said before, something that really strikes me, is that when he was in that sort of cycle of storytelling, he really felt like if he passed on any opportunity that he would forever be passed on again by that, you know, reporter or contact or whatever. So there was this added pressure of like, if I don't live up in this moment, then maybe I will lose my place in the movement.

Adrian: Totally. Yeah.

Sarah: And that just cycles into this, this place where it's hard for people to really think about their own mental health.

Adrian: Or many times, unfortunately, in the media, like immigration is such a, a huge topic. Like there's so many like facets and, and so much nuance to immigration news and reporting. I-- I've been asked about the border sometimes and I'm like, look like I'm from Chile. Like I came on an airplane. Like, I, I can't share any stories about that because I never lived it. I mean, sometimes folks in the media like think that you're an expert in everything and all things, immigration related, and that's not, that's not how it's.

Pam: So what was the goal ultimately for the report? What do you want people to get out of it? And it's still a work in progress.

Sarah: Yeah, it's actually been really amazing. We did the report primarily to inform ourselves and to understand what we as Define American needed to do to better position storytellers to inform all the practices of our work. So not just our external practices, but it's really changed the way we work internally that we put this pledge at the end of the report. And my pet peeves that I hate is like, when you see these pledges, because you're just like, is anybody really doing those pledges? And we really are. We really are.
There's a whole commitment from the whole staff that now when we do right contracts. So when you know, we're doing contracts to work with external photographers or, you know, this and that, like working into our contracts, like language around the centering of immigrant artists and the way we handle like external panels and events, really this report, we are being informed by our own recommendations. So we are practicing what we preach in that regard, but the amazing thing that has come from it, and it is that delicate balance you're talking about at writing the report, we wanted to really acknowledge that storytellers and the organizations that work with storytellers, we, we are all in this together. Everyone is there with good intentions and a good heart, and we want to see each other and raise each other up. And these are maybe the ways in the past that this has not happened, but we wanna meet each other here now. And how do we do that? And we sent the report out into the world and we were biting our nails a little bit about our sister organization's gonna receive it that way. Our storyteller is gonna receive it in the ways that we meant it. And just scared as you are with any project launch. And the beauty of it is that storytellers have come back to us and have said, I see myself, I see my friends. I see things in here that no one's ever said even behind closed doors Things that we have all sort of known, but have been like too nervous to say, which I think is the beauty of it. It being completely anonymous. Is anonymous because it's-- it's research, participants did agree to have their names tied to it. But in the end it was a choice that we wanted to say, we are a movement together, and it's not one person or one person's story. This is the collective story. And these are the collective patterns that we need to look at to be stronger and healthier together. And organizations, even beyond the immigrant rights movement have reached out. So really in the so social justice world at large reached out to Define American and said, like we had a funder who doesn't fund us, but just a philanthropy organization reached out and said, we asked storytellers to tell their stories at events and we realized from your work that, that we should be paying them an honorarium. And do you have a scale or, you know, a set sort of fees? Can you give us some guidance on that. Those things are huge to us because it really is everybody coming back to that common ground of like, oh, I see you. And then I understand how, how to do better. So let's do better together.

Pam: Mm. So good. It makes me think of a nonprofit who reached out to me recently and asked me to teach a workshop. And when I was like, is there compensation? And she was like, well, we don't do things that way. And always the way that's been always done is that there's no honorariums. That's not how we work. And I'm like, well, great. You have a great day.

Sarah: Yes. It's time to change. I feel like our report is, is the nice nudge towards that, of like, this is the reason why.

Pam: I'm gonna send it to them.

Sarah: Yes. This is the reason why when you know better, we hope that you do better.

Pam: Totally. Especially when it's an organization that represents Latinas.

Sarah: Yes. Yes.

Adrian: Yeah. Just to add to that, like also like the participants, uh, have shared their stories many times before, the participants of, of the, the research and they're between 25-40. So it's like, we've done this for a while. It's like, we also need like, mean we're adults. Like we gotta pay bills. Like we gotta be able to get compensated. And what I, what I would say to Sarah sometimes too, is that like, I mean, if it's not financially like monetarily at least like compensate, like on a per diem of, for the day for food or travel or lodging at a hotel, like throw us a bone.

Pam: Exposure doesn't work anymore.

Sarah: Yeah. This is why I get kind of excited about this work and why we feel like it's a continuum. Like it shouldn't be on, on you as the workshop potential facilitator to have to push back to say that. And what we're hoping is this kind of work then pushes back on the systems and structures and organizations to say, take a look at your own practices, reflect back. Someone after reading this report, who is in a, a philanthropy organization, said often in this space we feel like we are doing good. So we don't have to look back at ourselves and ask, are we doing good?

Pam: Oof.

Sarah: And it was a really good point of what we're asking with this research is let's look back at ourselves and make sure that we are doing the good work that we intend to be doing.

Pam: So much to talk about. We're running out of time. Where can we find the report?

Sarah: So the link to the report is defineamerican.com/research/american-dreaming. But you can find it by going to defineamerican.com and going to Research.

Pam: And you're two years in the works and you have two more years to work on it?

Sarah: Three years, we're going into our fourth year.

Pam: And what's the ultimate goal. When is this research going to conclude? If at all.

Sarah: We are currently working on taking the findings to the academic space. So writing for evidence based journals and particularly trying to publish in journals that we know policy makers are aware of because while we're in the business of, of changing hearts and minds and trying to lay more of a fertile ground, With the general public, we do want this work to be taken note by policy makers who are also using the storytellers for their stories. So going out in the academic journals is next. And then next up like the 2.0 of this project is we we're already launching new research in spring of 2023, working with immigrant creatives specifically to talk about what has facilitated their careers and what have been challenges, particularly around philanthropy, so that we can hear how the structures of, of philanthropy could change to better center the agency of immigrant artists and creatives.

Pam: So good. One of my favorite things, there were a lot of things that I really liked. One was the agency part that you just mentioned in the report that is shared that the power is within the person, not in the story. And so it, it was a great reminder for, for me as a reader, and I'm assuming for those who read the report, that it's, it's looking at the humanity of the person aside from profiting from their story and like making it, you know, something to capitalize on.

Adrian: Just gonna add that. I mean, just from personal experience. When I got involved in the movement in the beginning, like at least the, just the undocumented youth movement didn't know how to do that. Like, there was a lot of stumbles around agency and kind of cherry picking certain stories and certain parts of stories to fit the dreamer narrative, which now 10 years later keeps, uh, perpetuating the good versus bad immigrant narratives that are really problematic. Yeah. I mean, dreamers around the Obama administration were popular, but what about the other immigrants that weren't straight A students and didn't get accepted into Ivy leagues? So, I feel like the movement has evolved thankfully now were in 2022 we're able to voice those opinions. And I hope that, yeah, just the general public is not cherry picking stories and just centering the, the agency of all immigrants.

Sarah: And also perpetuating the idea that you all are still kids.

Adrian: Oh yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah, these dreamer kids, or these DACA kids, like I'm like 33. I'm not a kid anymore.

[laughs]

Pam: These dreamer kids have babies now.

Adrian: Right. Exactly.

Sarah: Babies and houses and jobs and cars like, yeah. This is, this is what has happened during all this stalled out time.

Pam: It's been that long.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: There's a whole new generation.

Adrian: It's 10 years next week that, uh, DACA was announced.

Pam: Oh my gosh.

Adrian: 10 years.

Pam: So what would you say to the allies?

Adrian: Yeah, I think. Again, Sarah's kind of touched on it earlier about like the hesitancy of like how, um, other organizations and, and other allies might take a report like this, but I feel like we wrote it in, in a way that gives the, the importance to what we were talking about the agency of the immigrant storytellers, and that you can't just rely on certain stories or certain storytellers a hundred percent of the time and expect them to keep coming back to you. They still need to be there, but also we have our agency and we have our set, um, values that, that need to be respected too.

Sarah: I think for me on the biggest front with what the report can tell allies is that being involved with them in the movement is personal. And that you have to look back at your own personal decision making and the way you operate first and foremost. Are you being aware of and centering storytellers while being an agency in everything that you do? And if you're doing this work, then you really should be committed to that. And it can't start from the external, what stories are we sharing? What's the next media moment that we're hitting. If you're starting from that, you're starting in the wrong place. You have to start with a deep respect and honor for that person that's right in front of you. And when you can build that trust and respect and honor, and, and attunement to what's going on with them, that will then create the power of the stories that shift everything else externally. It's starts with the connection between you and another person. And that is what I hope the crux of the report is, is that we have to be better attuned to each other and thinking about each other's wellbeing in this world, cuz that's how we move people.

Pam: Everyone should read this report. Whether you're an immigrant or not, because I think ultimately everyone's an immigrant here. We can trace it back.

Sarah: Yeah.

Adrian: That's true.

Pam: Native Americans are the only ones that are part of this land. So we're still standing on stolen land. So let's go read that thing. Thank you so much for creating it and for your work.

Sarah: Thank you. And thank you so much for having us.

Pam: Yeah. Thank you for coming along and sharing your stories with us and your findings and how it moved you, in moving us with this awesome report that you wrote. How do we know that the next round of findings will be like done? Cause you're still working on it.

Sarah: It's true. I mean, probably it's gonna come out maybe fall of 2023. I don't make any promises. Research is such a long process. But you can follow us at Define American on any of the social media platforms of which you're on. And we will definitely be announcing research as it rolls out. We have a lot of different research going on. So beyond American Dreaming research coming up pretty much, uh, two to three times a year.

Pam: Last two questions. What's your remedy?

Sarah: I'm curious. What's your remedy, Adrian?

Adrian: Oh, I mean the more well known one when you have like a cold or a sore throat, like the tea with honey and lemon. But the other one that I thought of as well was like, when you have the hiccups, you drink water and say verde as like the water's going down your throat. It's my grandma's remedy.

Pam: That's a new one.

Sarah: And does it work?

Adrian: I mean, I hope it works. Like I, I, I do it all the time.

Pam: Does it work for you?

Adrian: Yeah. From time to time, but it's also like in your head too, so I don't know.

Pam: interesting. So you drink the water and you say verde.

Adrian: Yeah.

Pam: Like you're like "verde".

Adrian: Yeah. I mean, as soon as it's going down your throat, you say you try to say verde and then the hiccups go away.

Pam: It sounds like a recipe for choking, but we'll, we'll try next time.

Adrian: I think it's supposed to have a little bit of that.

Pam: All right. Sarah, do you have a remedy?

Sarah: Yeah. In my family for growing pains. We put-- stick children in a warm bath with epson salt. And I have these wonderful memories of waking up in the middle of the night with growing pains in my legs. And my mom running me a warm bath with epsom salt and her sitting beside the bath and, and talking to me. And as my daughter, she's four years old. So she's just now coming into the growing pains. And I look back and I think, I wonder if it was more the conversation with my mom than the actual water and epsom salts, but whatever that magic is, that's, that's our remedy and I'm carrying it forward.

Pam: Have you tried it with your daughter?

Sarah: Not yet. Uh, you know, what's funny is , there's actually this, uh, these little gummies called I think they're called calm or something, but they're specifically for growing pains, cuz she always seems to get them when we're out. Like we haven't had them when we're like home yet. So I do have these little gummies and I'm a little worried. She'll be like, just gimme the gummy. I don't wanna take a bath.

Pam: Right. Conversations, what? We have a quick one.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: That's fun. I don't remember having growing pains. I don't think we talked about it in my, I mean I'm 5'3", so I don't think I had growing pains, so. I don't know, but my niece has had 'em.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Pam: And when she's like my leg hurts and it's just one and so I guess that's a growing pain.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: I'll tell my sister.

Sarah: To me, it literally feels like you can feel like your bones and muscles stretching.

Adrian: I remember having growing pains too, as a kid and they were painful, like sometimes like walking around the mall, like for a long time, then you'd get 'em. I'd get 'em.

Sarah: Did you do anything? Do you ever remedy?

Adrian: I don't remember a remedy. I think my, my mom was just like, suck it up, kinda.

Sarah: Yeah. [laughs]

Pam: We didn't talk about it. I know, I didn't hear about growing pains until like I started talking to white people.

Sarah: Oh, yeah! [laughs]

Pam: But that's a good one. That's a good one. The last question is, do you have a quote or mantra that you live by?

Adrian: It's funny. It's actually a quote from Dory from Finding Nemo. Just keep swimming. I feel like that's kind of my mantra because like, I've been through a lot, but it's kind of just like, just keep going. It'll pass.

Sarah: There's this poem called Desiderata and it says Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. I think that that's lovely, right? Like you need discipline, but really you just gotta be gentle with yourself.

Pam: Invite compassion always.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pam: A hundred percent. Thank you so much again, this was awesome. Thank you for your work.

Sarah: This really was awesome. Thank you.

Adrian: This was great. Yeah, this was really great.

Sarah and Adrian: Stay shining!

***

All right, listeners. That was my talk with Adrian and Sarah. What do you think? What are your thoughts? I have the report linked in the show notes and I believe, depending on what platform you listen to, but you will see the link to the report. And if not, send me a DM and I'm happy to send it to you, or I'm hoping that it came through or go to defineamerican.com. That's where you can find it. Let me know your thoughts, screenshot the podcast, screenshot the episode, tag me on it. I really love receiving your tags and seeing them. And you know, I'm not on social media as much, so many times, uh, this, this is what makes me sad, is that a lot of times I get the notification or I open Instagram a few days later and I just see like, so and so tag you in their story or mentioned you in their story and I'm like, oh, totally missed it. So I'm gonna try to hop on the gram if you tag me and just at least acknowledge that you did, because I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring you. It's just that I'm not on the platform as much, but I do love seeing them. So thank you for taking the time.

And if you are new here, welcome to Cafe con Pam. I hope you feel at home. I hope you enjoy our conversations and come back, please do share this with a friend. If you feel that somebody will benefit, it's always encouraged and highly appreciated when you do. And if you haven't, this is your time to maybe consider leaving a review or a rating in whatever platform of choice I recently started using Goodpods, and it was awesome to get a review, shout out to Austin Boyer 25, who gave us a rating on Sarah and Hilda's episode. So Austin rated that one specific episode five stars. And the cool thing about Goodpods, if you've not used it, or you've never heard of it, it's a, it's a podcast listening platform and this is not a sponsor post or anything, but I, I find it really cool because Goodpods allows you to rate specific episodes. You know, Laurita Chiquita, whom I love, has left like three reviews. And what happens in Apple Podcasts is that you can only leave one review per podcast. And so Laurita Chiquita has gone back and like edited the review multiple times because they just love the episode, which I so appreciate and enjoy reading the reviews. And so Goodpods on the other hand allows you to leave reviews specifically per episode, which is awesome. If you're looking for a platform, I know some of you, Spotify listeners, you're like, how do I leave you reviews? Well, sometimes if you're looking for a platform, if you are not a fan of Apple Podcast, or you just don't use Apple Podcasts, Goodpods might be a good alternative if you want to engage with each individual episode. Consider it, I don't know. I don't use Goodpods as much, pero I do like that option of rating episodes. Maybe I'll start using it more for that reason. I don't know. We'll see. Let me know.

This is a time where I invite you still, nonetheless, I digress, to consider leaving a rating or a review because it helps whichever platform you use unless it's Spotify. That's the one that doesn't let you review or do anything or any type of engagement with podcasts. Maybe later they will. Pero for now it's not about it. What you could do is support the show that way, leave a rating, leave a review. Tell me what you love about the show. It also supports the guests because their stories are amplified. As you share and review the show, then the algorithms choose to show it to other people, which is really helpful for those who are looking to a show like Cafe con Pam.

Y bueno, I would love to stay connected otherwise. There are multiple ways, social media is one if you want to kinda like hear about me from the easiest way, from the platforms that you are already on, Facebook and Instagram @cafeconpampodcast. I also have an online gathering space where we can come together and I can hear from you literally one on one, it's a Discord server. You know, I am into Web3, if you haven't caught on. And so Discord is the platform that is widely used in Web3. And so my gathering space for all of us has moved to Discord and we've been there for a minute. And so you can join it at stayshining.club, stayshining.club, and you'll get an invite. You create an account, you join and you're there. And it's super fun because we get to talk about specific episodes. That's where I actually do giveaways. I've done giveaways before and we hang out. So join us. It's a great place to do it.

If you're curious about what I do, you can join the Five Day Challenge. I have two, actually two five day challenges. One is to be more productive. The other one is a five day tapping challenge. If you're curious, if you have heard me talk about tapping and you're like, Pam, this is weird. Like we use our fingers in our body. Like, what are you talking about? Well, you can check out the five day tapping challenge where we tap for five days. No more than 15 minutes a day, is super fun. And then you can take the practice with you. All the people that join the five day challenge, literally tap. I wouldn't say every day, cuz that would be me making things up. But I think that has helped people take their practice regularly and tapping as a tool has awesome benefits. Not only does it increase your energy level, sometimes, it can also put you to sleep, PS, pero when you do it with the intention of feeling better it's also shown to reduce cortisol levels, it regulates your nervous system, it's an amazing tool. And so tappingchallengewith pam.com if you wanna check it out,

And if you are interested and or curious about finding ways to work with me, there's several ways that we can work together. And the reason why I do that is because I want to make sure that my work is accessible to you. And so I have multiple price points, multiple offers and different price points that allow you to join in at whichever level you are. And so check out my work, head over to pamcovarrubias.com, cafeconpam.com, whichever one you prefer, check out all the things and that's where you can learn more about my work.

I so appreciate you. Thank you so, so much for being here. I really, your support means a lot. I don't think you realize just you being here until this point, until this point. I don't believe that people stay this long in the episode. And so sometimes I drop a word and then when I promote the episode on the podcast, you kinda like mention the word and those who do they win things. And so the word of this episode is going to be orgullo, because this week as you listen, I am going to be traveling to Mexico City to attend Orgullo Mexico City. I will most likely, hopefully share on stories my journey in Mexico city, I'm gonna be going with my business partner, Luis, and we're going to be documenting our time there, We're the co-owners of Magico Tours, if you've not heard, check it out in social media. And it's a concierge ride company that supports people in the LGBTQI+ community. And the reason why we started that is because we wanted to reduce the homophobia that people face, especially when it comes to, to rides, to public transportation. And we offer that in Mexico City. Entonces we're gonna go, I'm gonna be there. And the word, if you are still here is orgullo. And I'm gonna challenge a little bit more and tell you that this word I'm going to ask it, or if you come into stayshining.club and you go to the Cafe con Pam channel and said the stay shining.club and say "orgullo", I'm going to send you something from Mexico. I'm gonna come back with some regalitos and if you do that, then I am willing to bet that this is not gonna happen. So prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. So the homework is, if you're still here, head over to stayshining.club, if you aren't there already, introduce yourself, select your roles, et cetera, et cetera, and then go to the Cafe con Pam channel and type the word "orgullo" and then I'll send you a gift from me to you with love, because I don't believe anyone's here at this point. So if you are, and if you do the homework, Hmm, you never know what you'll get.
Pero bueno, thank you una vez mas so much for being here. I so appreciate you and como siempre, stay shining!